http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&feed=atom&action=history
Talk:Relays - Revision history
2024-03-28T12:50:40Z
Revision history for this page on the wiki
MediaWiki 1.34.2
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=15713&oldid=prev
DavidCary: wikify syntax
2008-06-25T13:26:50Z
<p>wikify syntax</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 13:26, 25 June 2008</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l27" >Line 27:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>well, the <math> latex markup syntax seems not to to be working for me... Could someone enable that feature? The same markup works at my wikipedia sandbox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mzandrew/Sandbox</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>well, the <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"><nowiki></ins><math<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">></math></nowiki</ins>> latex markup syntax seems not to to be working for me... Could someone enable that feature? The same markup works at my wikipedia sandbox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mzandrew/Sandbox</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Using 10k makes the current too small, so the relay might not be driven or not driven reliably.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Using 10k makes the current too small, so the relay might not be driven or not driven reliably.</div></td></tr>
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DavidCary
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=12462&oldid=prev
Garrocha: Reverted to Revision as of 17:05, 24 September 2007 by DavidCary
2007-12-29T21:31:00Z
<p>Reverted to Revision as of 17:05, 24 September 2007 by DavidCary</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 21:31, 29 December 2007</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1" >Line 1:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I really find this site very interesting, and it gives people a pleasure time!</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">== that resistor shouldn't be 10k ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I really appreciate the creators of this website! </del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
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diffchange-inline">amateur-sex-cam</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">html">amateur sex cam</</del>a<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">> http://www.ymcaqyp.org/media/.xml</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">php?30/amateur-sex-cam.html <a href="http</del>:<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">//geekz.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/?30/asian-cam-live-sex-web.html">asian cam live sex web</a> http</del>:<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">//geekz.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/</del>2007<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">/02/?30/asian-cam-live-sex-web.html</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Um, assuming that somebody just threw in 10k and didn't bother to calculate what the value should be, then it's misleading at best (ie, always use 10k) and won't work at worst (I realize that 10k might be the correct value for some choices of transistor, relay and microcontroller)</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">This isn't just </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">pull</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">up or pull</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">down resistor</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">It matters what current is going through it, because the same current ends up going through the base of the transistor</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the fix</ins>:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">It'd be great if the original author of the jpeg would modify it to just say R and then we could put the formula for figuring out what it should be in there</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">And then we could add the following text, although it sort of belongs in </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">transistor section or page</ins>:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">If you have </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">microcontroller and you want to have it control an NPN transistor, you need to have </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">resistor in series with the base of the transistor</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">This is to get the voltage from the microcontroller's output level down to what the transistor wants (about 0</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">6V)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Another way of thinking of it is to get the current through the resistor (and hence through the base) correct</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">In the following description, <math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">V_{microcontroller}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is the driving voltage from your microcontroller's output (for example, 3</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">3V), </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">V_{base}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is the voltage the transistor wants across the base</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">emitter (usually about 0</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">6V), </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I_{relay}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is the current the relay needs running through it to be turned on (for example, 100mA), and </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">h_{fe}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math> is the current gain of the transistor (usually about </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">factor of 100, so if you have 1mA going through the base of the transistor, you can get up to 100 times that, or 100mA through the emitter</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">collector)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">You need to drop </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">voltage </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(V_{microcontroller}</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">V_{base})</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">across the resistor, and if your relay needs </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">current </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I_{relay}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">to switch, then your base</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">emitter current </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I_{base}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">should be </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math>I_{base} </ins>= <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{2I_{relay}}\over{h_{fe}}}<</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(with the factor of 2 as </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">safety margin, remember the emitter</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">collector current can only be up to </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">h_{fe}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">times the base</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">emitter current and we don't want to design it to be on the edge of just barely working)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">We have </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">voltage and </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">current, so we use Ohm's law to get the resistance</ins>: <<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math>V_{resistor}</ins>=<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I_{resistor}R<</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">, which we rewrite as </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">R={{V_{resistor}}\over{I_{resistor}}}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">and then get </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">R</ins>=<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{h_{fe}(V_{microcontroller}</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">V_{base})}\over{2I_{relay}}}</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">So, punch your components' values in to that formula and you'll get the resistor value to use</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Example: </ins> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Using the common values stated earlier, we get </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math>R</ins>=<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{100(3</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">3V</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">0</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">6V)}\over{2(100mA)}}</ins>=<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">1350\Omega</ins></<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">well, the </ins><<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math</ins>> <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">latex markup syntax seems not to to be working for me</ins>... <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Could someone enable that feature</ins>? <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The same markup works at my wikipedia sandbox</ins>: http://<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">en</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">wikipedia</ins>.org/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">wiki</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">User:Mzandrew</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Sandbox</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Using 10k makes the current too small, so the relay might not be driven or not driven reliably</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The diode is </ins>a <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">nice touch though</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[[User</ins>:<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Mzandrew|Mzandrew]] 14</ins>:<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">05, 2 September </ins>2007 <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(PDT)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>
Garrocha
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=10319&oldid=prev
195.225.178.18 at 15:17, 29 October 2007
2007-10-29T15:17:45Z
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:17, 29 October 2007</td>
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195.225.178.18
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=9288&oldid=prev
195.77.254.25 at 15:55, 5 October 2007
2007-10-05T15:55:47Z
<p></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:55, 5 October 2007</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1" >Line 1:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 1:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== that resistor shouldn't be 10k ==</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">my argument:</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Um, assuming that somebody just threw in 10k and didn't bother to calculate what the value should be, then it's misleading at best (ie, always use 10k) and won't work at worst (I realize that 10k might be the correct value for some choices of transistor, relay and microcontroller). This isn't just a pull-up or pull-down resistor. It matters what current is going through it, because the same current ends up going through the base of the transistor.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the fix:</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">It'd be great if the original author of the jpeg would modify it to just say R and then we could put the formula for figuring out what it should be in there.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">And then we could add the following text, although it sort of belongs in a transistor section or page:</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">If you have a microcontroller and you want to have it control an NPN transistor, you need to have a resistor in series with the base of the transistor.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">This is to get the voltage from the microcontroller's output level down to what the transistor wants (about 0.6V).</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Another way of thinking of it is to get the current through the resistor (and hence through the base) correct.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">In the following description, <math>V_{microcontroller}</math> is the driving voltage from your microcontroller's output (for example, 3.3V), <math>V_{base}</math> is the voltage the transistor wants across the base-emitter (usually about 0.6V), <math>I_{relay}</math> is the current the relay needs running through it to be turned on (for example, 100mA), and <math>h_{fe}</math> is the current gain of the transistor (usually about a factor of 100, so if you have 1mA going through the base of the transistor, you can get up to 100 times that, or 100mA through the emitter/collector).</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">You need to drop a voltage <math>(V_{microcontroller}-V_{base})</math> across the resistor, and if your relay needs a current <math>I_{relay}</math> to switch, then your base-emitter current <math>I_{base}</math> should be <math>I_{base} = {{2I_{relay}}\over{h_{fe}}}</math> (with the factor of 2 as a safety margin, remember the emitter-collector current can only be up to <math>h_{fe}</math> times the base-emitter current and we don't want to design it to be on the edge of just barely working).</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">We have a voltage and a current, so we use Ohm's law to get the resistance: <math>V_{resistor}=I_{resistor}R</math>, which we rewrite as <math>R={{V_{resistor}}\over{I_{resistor}}}</math> and then get <math>R={{h_{fe}(V_{microcontroller}-V_{base})}\over{2I_{relay}}}</math>.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">So, punch your components' values in to that formula and you'll get the resistor value to use.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Example: Using the common values stated earlier, we get <math>R={{100(3.3V-0.6V)}\over{2(100mA)}}=1350\Omega</math>.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">----</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">well, the <math> latex markup syntax seems not to to be working for me... Could someone enable that feature? The same markup works at my wikipedia sandbox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mzandrew/Sandbox</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Using 10k makes the current too small, so the relay might not be driven or not driven reliably.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The diode is a nice touch though.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:Mzandrew|Mzandrew]] 14:05, 2 September 2007 (PDT)</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
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195.77.254.25
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=8863&oldid=prev
209.99.227.70 at 02:30, 27 September 2007
2007-09-27T02:30:44Z
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 02:30, 27 September 2007</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l34" >Line 34:</td>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[User:Mzandrew|Mzandrew]] 14:05, 2 September 2007 (PDT)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[User:Mzandrew|Mzandrew]] 14:05, 2 September 2007 (PDT)</div></td></tr>
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209.99.227.70
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=8721&oldid=prev
DavidCary: revert to 20:55, 8 September 2007 by Mzandrew
2007-09-24T17:05:22Z
<p>revert to 20:55, 8 September 2007 by Mzandrew</p>
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<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:05, 24 September 2007</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l34" >Line 34:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 34:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
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DavidCary
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=8645&oldid=prev
195.225.177.216 at 15:06, 22 September 2007
2007-09-22T15:06:27Z
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:06, 22 September 2007</td>
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195.225.177.216
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=8306&oldid=prev
59.41.39.21 at 00:10, 15 September 2007
2007-09-15T00:10:59Z
<p></p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 00:10, 15 September 2007</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l34" >Line 34:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 34:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[User:Mzandrew|Mzandrew]] 14:05, 2 September 2007 (PDT)</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[User:Mzandrew|Mzandrew]] 14:05, 2 September 2007 (PDT)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">My life's been basically dull these days.</ins></div></td></tr>
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59.41.39.21
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=7854&oldid=prev
Mzandrew: updated latex markup a bit
2007-09-08T20:55:24Z
<p>updated latex markup a bit</p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 20:55, 8 September 2007</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l18" >Line 18:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 18:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In the following description, <math>V_{microcontroller}</math> is the driving voltage from your microcontroller's output (for example, 3.3V), <math>V_{base}</math> is the voltage the transistor wants across the base-emitter (usually about 0.6V), <math>I_{relay}</math> is the current the relay needs running through it to be turned on (for example, 100mA), and <math>h_{fe}</math> is the current gain of the transistor (usually about a factor of 100, so if you have 1mA going through the base of the transistor, you can get up to 100 times that, or 100mA through the emitter/collector).</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In the following description, <math>V_{microcontroller}</math> is the driving voltage from your microcontroller's output (for example, 3.3V), <math>V_{base}</math> is the voltage the transistor wants across the base-emitter (usually about 0.6V), <math>I_{relay}</math> is the current the relay needs running through it to be turned on (for example, 100mA), and <math>h_{fe}</math> is the current gain of the transistor (usually about a factor of 100, so if you have 1mA going through the base of the transistor, you can get up to 100 times that, or 100mA through the emitter/collector).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You need to drop a voltage <math>V_{microcontroller}-V_{base}</math> across the resistor, and if your relay needs a current <math>I_{relay}</math> to switch, then your base-emitter current <math>I_{base}</math> should be <math>I_{base} = 2I_{relay}<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">/</del>h_{fe}</math> (with the factor of 2 as a safety margin, remember the emitter-collector current can be <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">UP TO </del><math>h_{fe}</math> times the base-emitter current and we don't want to design it to just barely <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">work</del>).</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>We have a voltage and a current, so we use Ohm's law to get the resistance: <math>V_{resistor}=I_{resistor}R</math>, which we rewrite as <math>R=V_{resistor}<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">/</del>I_{resistor}</math> and then get <math>R=h_{fe}(V_{microcontroller}-V_{base})<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">/</del>2I_{relay}</math>.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You need to drop a voltage <math><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(</ins>V_{microcontroller}-V_{base}<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">)</ins></math> across the resistor, and if your relay needs a current <math>I_{relay}</math> to switch, then your base-emitter current <math>I_{base}</math> should be <math>I_{base} = <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{</ins>2I_{relay}<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}\over{</ins>h_{fe<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}}</ins>}</math> (with the factor of 2 as a safety margin, remember the emitter-collector current can <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">only </ins>be <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">up to </ins><math>h_{fe}</math> times the base-emitter current and we don't want to design it to <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">be on the edge of </ins>just barely <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">working</ins>).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>We have a voltage and a current, so we use Ohm's law to get the resistance: <math>V_{resistor}=I_{resistor}R</math>, which we rewrite as <math>R=<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{</ins>V_{resistor}<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}\over{</ins>I_{resistor<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}}</ins>}</math> and then get <math>R=<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{</ins>h_{fe}(V_{microcontroller}-V_{base})<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}\over{</ins>2I_{relay<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}}</ins>}</math>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, punch your components' values in to that formula and you'll get the resistor value to use.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So, punch your components' values in to that formula and you'll get the resistor value to use.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Using the common values stated earlier, we get <math>R=100(3.3V-0.6V)<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">/</del>(<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">2*</del>100mA)=1350\Omega</math>.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Example: </ins>Using the common values stated earlier, we get <math>R=<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{</ins>100(3.3V-0.6V)<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}\over{2</ins>(100mA)<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}}</ins>=1350\Omega</math>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr>
</table>
Mzandrew
http://www.opencircuits.com/index.php?title=Talk:Relays&diff=7803&oldid=prev
DavidCary: revert to 21:05, 2 September 2007 by Mzandrew
2007-09-08T01:48:13Z
<p>revert to 21:05, 2 September 2007 by Mzandrew</p>
<table class="diff diff-contentalign-left" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #222; text-align: center;">Revision as of 01:48, 8 September 2007</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1" >Line 1:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 1:</td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Hull!</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">== that resistor shouldn't be 10k ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Dis site gets betta every time I visit it.</del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Great work guyz! </del></div></td><td colspan="2"> </td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[http</del>://<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">www.gb</del>-<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">x</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">de</del>/<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">gbuch</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">php?forum_id</del>=<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">76256 black </del>and <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">white gay sex] | </del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">my argument:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[http</del>://<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">vesturing</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">grafbb</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">com free gay asian] | </del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[http:</del>//<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">icehousee5e</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">www2</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">prexon</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">nl/ nude gay men fucking] | </del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Um, assuming that somebody just threw in 10k and didn't bother to calculate what the value should be, then it's misleading at best (ie, always use 10k) and won't work at worst (I realize that 10k might be the correct value for some choices of transistor, relay and microcontroller). This isn't just a pull-up or pull-down resistor. It matters what current is going through it, because the same current ends up going through the base of the transistor.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[</del>http://<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">www</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">guestbook</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">at</del>/<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">gb</del>/<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">gast</del>/<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">index</del>.<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">php?buchid=atrophies66 dirty gay sex</del>]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the fix:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">It'd be great if the original author of the jpeg would modify it to just say R and then we could put the formula for figuring out what it should be in there.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">And then we could add the following text, although it sort of belongs in a transistor section or page</ins>:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">----</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">If you have a microcontroller and you want to have it control an NPN transistor, you need to have a resistor in series with the base of the transistor.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">This is to get the voltage from the microcontroller's output level down to what the transistor wants (about 0.6V).</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Another way of thinking of it is to get the current through the resistor (and hence through the base) correct.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">In the following description, <math>V_{microcontroller}<</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math> is the driving voltage from your microcontroller's output (for example, 3.3V), <math>V_{base}<</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math> is the voltage the transistor wants across the base</ins>-<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">emitter (usually about 0</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">6V), <math>I_{relay}</math> is the current the relay needs running through it to be turned on (for example, 100mA), and <math>h_{fe}</math> is the current gain of the transistor (usually about a factor of 100, so if you have 1mA going through the base of the transistor, you can get up to 100 times that, or 100mA through the emitter</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">collector)</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">You need to drop a voltage <math>V_{microcontroller}-V_{base}</math> across the resistor, and if your relay needs a current <math>I_{relay}</math> to switch, then your base-emitter current <math>I_{base}</math> should be <math>I_{base} </ins>= <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">2I_{relay}/h_{fe}</math> (with the factor of 2 as a safety margin, remember the emitter-collector current can be UP TO <math>h_{fe}</math> times the base-emitter current </ins>and <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">we don't want to design it to just barely work).</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">We have a voltage and a current, so we use Ohm's law to get the resistance</ins>: <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> <math>V_{resistor}=I_{resistor}R<</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math>, which we rewrite as <math>R=V_{resistor}</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">I_{resistor}</math> and then get <math>R=h_{fe}(V_{microcontroller}-V_{base})/2I_{relay}</math></ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">So, punch your components' values in to that formula and you'll get the resistor value to use</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Using the common values stated earlier, we get <math>R=100(3.3V-0.6V)</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">(2*100mA)=1350\Omega<</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">math>.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">----</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">well, the <math> latex markup syntax seems not to to be working for me</ins>... <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> Could someone enable that feature? The same markup works at my wikipedia sandbox: </ins>http://<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">en</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">wikipedia</ins>.<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">org</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">wiki</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">User:Mzandrew</ins>/<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Sandbox</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Using 10k makes the current too small, so the relay might not be driven or not driven reliably.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The diode is a nice touch though</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="color: #222; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">[[User:Mzandrew|Mzandrew]</ins>] <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">14:05, 2 September 2007 (PDT)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>
DavidCary